Opinion
By dismissing Joe Rogan, Kim Williams has missed a golden opportunity
David Swan
Technology editorA single post on X from Joe Rogan summed it up perfectly.
“LOL WUT”.
This, after ABC chair Kim Williams unloaded on the world’s most popular podcaster, suggesting that Rogan and other popular right-wing commentators “prey” on their audiences.
ABC chair Kim Williams (right) was critical of podcaster Joe Rogan during a National Press Club address. Credit: Digitally altered image. Artwork: Marija Ercegovac.
“They prey on fear, they prey on anxiety, they prey on all of the elements that contribute to uncertainty in society ... They entrepreneur fantasy outcomes and conspiracy outcomes as being a normal part of social narrative,” Williams told the National Press Club on Wednesday.
You might not like Rogan. I’m no fan, and Williams certainly isn’t. But what the former comedian and TV host has managed to accomplish with his podcast, The Joe Rogan Experience, is precisely what the ABC has largely failed at for years – to meaningfully engage with young audiences.
Considering Australians are the consumers of the most podcasts in the world, you’d think Williams would be paying a lot of attention to this space, and the people who dominate it. But in his comments, he displayed a basic misunderstanding of Rogan’s modus operandi.
Rogan hosts the world’s most popular podcast, growing his audience by thousands of new listeners each week. He boasts the kind of listener numbers that the ABC would kill for (about 200 million downloads per month).
His interviews, while occasionally incoherent and sometimes boring, are typically probing and inquisitive. Episodes can often run for three hours or more (his recent episode with Donald Trump ran for two hours and 58 minutes).
Rogan goes deep, as good podcasters tend to. He’s not judgmental, and often fails to challenge the views of his guests, which is sometimes the problem (as was the case with some of his guests during the height of the pandemic).
Where the real problem lies, and where Williams may have a point, is with whom Rogan chooses to promote on his platform.
Among his most-watched interviews on YouTube are Elon Musk, psychologist Jordan Peterson, conspiracy theorist Alex Jones and the US president-elect. Unsurprisingly, his podcast garners headlines for its most odious opinions.
But he’s also featured senator Bernie Sanders, a self-described socialist, and security whistleblower Edward Snowden.
Rogan often hosts celebrities – Russell Crowe was a recent guest – as well as MMA fighters, philosophers, comedians and musicians such as Miley Cyrus. With those guests, too, he goes much deeper than most surface-level questions.
It’s patronising to Rogan, and to his millions of listeners, to simply pigeonhole him or his ilk as repulsive, or as ”predators”. To do so further alienates the young Australians who are increasingly turning off the national broadcaster, and mainstream media more broadly, in favour of podcasts and video content that speaks more directly to them.
It’s no secret the ABC has struggled to parlay its long-standing cultural cachet into ongoing modern relevance for young people.
Joe Rogan has almost 2 billion downloads to his name.Credit: Netflix
For me, growing up, Play School between the ages of about three and six was mandatory viewing before graduating to the 7pm news and Rage on Saturday mornings. The radio station 774 AM was the background to car rides across suburban Melbourne.
For many of us, the ABC was a crucial and all-present part of our media diets in our formative years. But for many younger Australians, its role is diminishing. Part of that is the advent of the internet, which has created countless other content options for people to consume, whether that be Netflix, YouTube, social media or anything else. YouTubers such as Ryan Kaji (host of Ryan’s World), Mila and Emma Stauffer, and Anastasia Radzinskaya (otherwise known as Nastya) would probably be more popular in most Australian households with kids under 10 than any Play School host.
The ABC also bears some responsibility for failing to fully keep up with the trends of today. There’s a perception that some of the broadcaster’s hosts, while experienced, fail to speak to a broad audience, and others who do are axed. Aunty’s inner turmoil, which has been well documented, has also perhaps prevented it from being able to adequately focus on what should be its core mission: connecting with Australians.
The ABC, of course, could not and should not be throwing money at Rogan imitators. But its leadership should be working harder to try to understand why he’s so popular instead of dismissing someone with almost 2 billion downloads to their name.
In the days since his press club address, Williams has received a flood of criticism. But rather than listening, it seems to have only made him double down. On Friday, the chair told Raf Epstein he had been subjected to “a pile-on” before admitting “I just don’t get it”.
Perhaps the most telling comment came, though, when Williams tried to diminish Rogan for a second time, saying “he’s obviously been a very influential character in America”. Clearly, no one has told Williams that just two years ago in 2022, the most listened-to podcast in Australia was The Joe Rogan Experience.
In responding to Williams’ address with a two-word post, Rogan said what many Australians were no doubt already thinking. Sadly, they’re probably the same people Williams and the ABC desperately need to engage with.
David Swan is technology editor for The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald.
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